I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I am strongly considering conversion to the Catholic communion centered around the cathedra unitatis, the Chair of the Apostle Peter in the Church of Rome. I created this weblog as a chronicle of my journey, and some of the theological issues that I am currently sorting through.
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Cathedra Unitatis 
i am a protestant on my way to joining the Orthodox church. i consider myself Orthodox, having only the process of formalities left as i am in agreement with the teaching, tradition, and theology of the church. i came from a “low church” background and have experienced the joy of embracing orthodox/catholic(here both the broader lowercase terms meant to include Rome and Constantinople) traditions in truth. i am genuinely excited to have come across your blog and was wondering about the shift. i haven’t read enough of your posts yet to know entirely what the motivation is(and i do hold such conviction in high respect, as you are, in my opinion, already standing closer to the fullness of Christ’s Church than i am). to one who is converting to Orthodoxy, would you have any advice or even caution? i don’t suspect you hold contempt for the Orthodox church but, as you have affirmed already a stronger interest in Petrine primacy, but was wondering what you could offer to an ecumenically driven, converting protestant?
thank you for anything you can offer…
Greetings Andrew,
Thanks for your message. I’m glad to hear of your ongoing journey from Protestantism to Orthodoxy.
At this point I am still remaining silent on certain aspects of my story, for purposes of anonymity. I realize that because there are these missing blanks, readers of my blog are somewhat in the dark about what has caused me to reconsider some of the Orthodox/Catholic issues. The blog really isn’t supposed to be about me, but about some of the problems I have been sorting through.
I don’t feel as if I’m in a position to offer any advice, except this: take your time, and honestly and thoroughly look at the claims of both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that I personally took enough time in my Orthodox conversion process, and I do not believe that I gave Rome (and the Eastern Catholic Churches) a fair and thorough hearing the first time around.
I have just one more piece of advice/caution, which may seem a tad hypocritical. I would recommend that you not put too much stock in information/conversations/debates that you find on the Internet. Do lots of your own reading, seek out knowledgeable priests and/or laymen from both sides, and visit a lot of parishes. I have learned an awful lot from running this blog since January. There have been excellent comments from both Orthodox and Catholics. So, the Internet is not all that bad, but you still have to create some personal relationships and get a sense of real Orthodox and Catholic communities.
I hope this helps!
thanks for the response. given the convictions that led me to Orthodoxy in the first place(that of accepting the necessity for ecumenical unity which, in turn means a “low church” protestestant like me had to reassess the claims of the Orthodox/Catholic traditions, as they are after all, the oldest ones around) i am glad to see some one looking seriously at what they believe and willing to share. so again, thank you for your open and giving attitude.
peace.
i discuss some of this on my blog.
http://unasancta.wordpress.com/
One problem that arises when a Western Protestant chooses Orthodoxy is the intentional NOT choosing Catholicism. Thus, the convert to Orthodoxy feels the need to revisit old conflicts and take sides, even though he is in all likelhood woefully underinformed.
We Protestant converts to Catholicism can usually convert without developing a lot of polemical arguments against Orthodoxy. Taking the lead from our glorious popes, most of us are very enthusiastic about things Eastern, and we admire the East a great deal.
Not so for many converts to Orthodoxy. It is as if they must be able to say Rome was wrong, and still is. Otherwise they would simply have been no reason not to reconcile with the Catholic Church as their natural spiritual patronage.
Tom Howards answer, why he is Catholic and not Orthodox is a great one. It is hard, if not impossible for an Orthodox convert to speak as he does:
Dr. Howard: I am sharply aware of the fissure between the Latin and the Orthodox churches in this matter, and on this point I must dodge behind a manifestly flimsy shield, namely, that I, as a solitary layman, cannot untangle what these churches have been unable, for 1000 years, to untangle. I am a Western Christian, for good or ill.
Unasancta: I fear the everpresent anti-Catholic spirit of the English-speaking world coupled with strengths of the East in reverence and heavenly mysticism are influences stronger than any rational disection of the ancient East/West conflicts. The Orthodox converts often speaks as if they knew exactly what went wrong, and appear to revel in the cool hipness of being on the inside of it all- very much as they did when they were evangelical.
seeking humility without shunning the search for truth
unasancta
I’ve been looking into Orthodoxy for several months now, but I’ve been slowed down as I’ve looked into the claims of the Catholic Church. Finding your blog has been a good thing; it’s good to know I’m not the only one who is looking into it.
I have one question: If you find, in the end, that you accept the Roman view of Petrine primacy, would you find it necessary to leave the Orthodox Church? Do you feel there is a place within Orthodoxy for a person with ecumenical interests (as far as Catholicism-Orthodoxy goes)?
Thanks for putting your thoughts and resources on here. I don’t have a whole lot of time to investigate things independently, so I appreciate your presence.
Kellen,
Thanks for your comment. I commend your thoroughness in looking honestly at both Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
At this point, I would prefer not to speak any more about what I personally intend to do with regard to my church affiliation. There are certain details of my story which I have not shared publicly, but which would go a long way in explaining why I’m doing what I’m doing (which I would not recommend to other Orthodox, unless they have a very similar personal background to mine). I don’t believe in “poaching” adherents of Apostolic Churches, whether it’s being done from the Orthodox side or the Catholic side. The Orthodox/Catholic issues ought to be settled corporately, which means no proselytism on either side.
When it comes to folks who are Protestants, I would simply encourage them to study as best they can the unique claims of both communions, and try their best to prayerfully discern where God wants them to be. I do, however, have a strange little theory that Protestants ought to settle their beef with Rome before they go on to look at Orthodoxy. This is because far too often Protestant converts to Orthodoxy take a lot of unfortunate anti-Roman baggage with them.
Lastly, I believe that there absolutely is a place in Orthodoxy for those who are ecumenically-minded. I don’t mean WCC super-liberal ecumenism, but an irenic approach to relations with Rome and the Oriental Orthodox. I will say that as a self-described moderate ecumenical Orthodox type, this position can seem extremely lonely at times (especially when surrounded by constant streams of zealous converts and pugnacious Orthodox polemicists).
And I think that there should be a place within Orthodoxy for those who want to take up the very generous viewpoint of Orthodox theologians (such as Olivier Clement, or Bishop Vsevolod of Skopelos, or many of the recent Ecumenical Patriarchs) toward papal primacy. Again, such a position will very often seem very lonely, and there will be plenty of self-appointed “guardians of the Orthodox Faith” who will tell you can’t be Orthodox and hold such opinions.
Anyhow, enough rambling. Thanks for reading the blog!
Kellen, just as an aside–on the Catholic side, be sure to investigate the Eastern Rite churches and even the Extraordinary form of Mass (i.e. ‘the old Latin Mass’) communities. They are proof that liturgical beauty and mysticism exists in the Roman Church, even if not necessarily down at “Fr. Happy-Clappy-Hippie’s” guitar-strumming parish down the street.
I was raised in a liberal Catholic Novus Ordo parish, bummed around Evangelicalism for a while, and then walked into an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and like the envoys from Russia, “didn’t know whether I was on Heaven or Earth.” I almost converted immediately just because of that experience. However, investigating Orthodoxy necessitates learning something about Catholicism in the process. Five years later, I’m now a Catholic seminarian, though I love our Orthodox brethren greatly.
For me, it was much easier to take both Churches claims on their own merits once I realized the choice wasn’t between “guitar folk Mass” and “Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom”.
Don’t mistake the “boots on the ground” arguments for one church or the other over the theological arguments. Orthodox churches can be fiercely ethnic “clubs” and Catholic churches can be pits of heresy, but there are also Orthodox churches full of diverse peoples in love with Orthodoxy and Catholic churches rock solid in doctrine and faithful to Tradition. Keep a “macro” level view and don’t get too wrapped up in the “micro.”
You may also want to keep in mind that the Catholic Church is still reeling from processing a Council, while the Orthodox have not have a church-wide Council for quite a long time. If the Orthodox were trying to assimilate their OWN Vatican 2, I’m sure there would doctrinal problems (remember a little problem called Arianism?)
Good luck in your faith journey, and may you embrace the apostolic faith, no matter which side of the Tiber or Bosphorus you end up on. I pray that one day, the Tiber and Bosphorus will flow into one another, creating one mighty river to crash upon and flush away the culture of death! 😉
Seminarian Brian
Seminarian Brian,
Amen and Amen! Thank you for your words.
I discovered your blog some months ago but due to various circumstances have been unable to follow up.
I must say I was taken aback at first but after you adjusted your heading I had no trouble with your position. In a sense, I have ‘been there, done that’. In my case ( inspite of my last name), i was reared non-religious protestant-Methodist before they became United-mostly. I grew up with various Christian relatives from “holy Rollers”, “fundamentalists”, “evangelicals”, “liberal protestants”, Roman Catholics and my one grandfather was Serbian Orthodox. We all lived in “peaceful co-existence” mostly. I was little influenced by any of them. In college I met a few people who were ‘Episcopalians’. This struck my interest and my investigation began which took me from Episcopalianism to Catholicism to Byzantine Catholicism to Orthodoxy and back again! Many other stops in between.
I embraced each and every one vigorously only to discover, in my opnion, the failure of Christ and His Church. I had so many issues to work through over the years and at nearing age 60, I managed to resolve all the major ones and most of the minor ones.
The end result? Christ and His Church has not failed. I am, for all intent and purpose, “EASTERN ORTHODOX”-this is my ‘Mere Christianity’ starting point- I am ‘CATHOLIC’ and accept the Bishop of Rome as ‘de jure’ if not ‘de facto’ head of Christ’s Church. I especially respect Pope Benedict XVI ( I don’t know if being 80% Germanic and 20% Slavic has anything to do with it!) Areas of difference between between Rome and Constantinople are not issues I can address. They really don’t concern my relationship with Christ or my everyday life.
I can only wish you well on your journey.
I just discovered your blog and find it quite interesting. I am a Catholic who has been researching Eastern Orthodoxy. Although I am not considering converting, I have a friend who is, and I am wanting to learn more about Orthodoxy in general since I want to see why he is being attracted to Orthdoxy and why others appear to be leaving Orthdoxy and becoming Catholic. At first I though his reason for leaving Catholicism was just due to the current pathetic state of liturgy in the West or due to scandals that have arisen, but he is assuring me it is due to doctrine, so I want to better understand the Orthodox positions.
I do have a hope for unity between East and West, and I think a part of the problem is either hostility or apathy both sides of the Tiber/Bosporus. While I don’t personally agree with what my friend is doing, I do want to understand better why he is doing it. And I do admit, I have been interested in the spirituality the Eastern Church has. I certainly think there is much to learn spiritually from the Eastern Churches be they Catholic or Orthodox.
So, I hope to learn more.
Thanks.
As a Catholic priest and (would-be) theologian, who is interested in Orthodoxy and has long-standing scruples about the papal claims (more about universal ordinary jurisdiction than about infallibility) I counsel caution. I would be very interested in contacting you personally as I feel we could help one another and install a mutually interesting dialogue. You have my mail address now!
cathedraunitatis,
I appreciate your blog-helpful and also (much to my wife’s chagrin) a great source of rabbit-trails! I am a recent convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism (Methodist, ‘Non-Denom.’-basically baptist) and feel that I am guilty of something you referred to in an earlier post, namely, protestants that jump the Bosphorus without giving a glance to Rome. I definitely have my anti-Rome baggage given to me in childhood, and am only now attempting to consider the RCC with an objective mind. The likes of a St. Thomas, Palestrina, and G.K. Chesterton make Rome hard to resist.
Fr Paul –
I will drop you an e-mail.
Pilgrim –
Thanks for your comment. I’ll break my blog fast to offer a few rambling thoughts.
I’m certainly not counseling a consideration of Catholicism over Orthodoxy. (To tell the truth, at this point, I regret having started this blog from the perspective of my own personal convictions and consideration of conversion.) But I think it’s helpful to look into both, and to give both a fair hearing (and I mean that for Protestants who are looking primarily at Catholicism as well). At the very least, a convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism should have a more sympathetic understanding of Catholicism, and a more nuanced understanding of Rome and the Western Church than the polemical books, tracts and blogs will be able to provide (and the reverse is true: don’t just rely on Catholic polemics about Orthodoxy).
Very early on in my reconsideration of Catholic-Orthodox issues, a very wise Catholic priest gave me this advice: As an Orthodox Christian, “Do not become Catholic unless you believe it is your moral duty to do so.” He also pointed out that the Catholic Church does not endorse proselytizing Orthodox individuals or groups of Orthodox Christians. Her policy, especially since Vatican II, has been to deal with Orthodoxy corporately, hoping, praying and working for the eventual reunion of the Churches.
And I know plenty of Orthodox Christians (converts and cradle; bishops, clergy and laity; scholars and non-scholars; of every jurisdiction) who have have a very irenic and sympathetic point-of-view towards Catholicism (may their tribe increase). The fact that I’m Orthodox does not mean that I can’t appreciate and benefit in some way from the riches of the Roman Catholic tradition (St. Thomas, Palestrina, Chesterton among many, many other wonderful things). And, of course, I don’t think that Eastern Orthodoxy is any less rich than Catholicism in beauty, genius, and spiritual riches.
It’s certainly not my place to offer you any counsel, as I am not your spiritual father. But as someone in your boat and perhaps a little further along in my consideration of these matters, I would recommend that you exercise extreme caution about leaving Orthodoxy and joining Catholicism. And take lots, and lots, and lots of time. Please don’t do anything hasty! (That’s an excellent bit of advice that’s been given to me over and over by both Orthodox and Catholic pastors.)
CU: While it is true that our Church’s recent official focus has been more on corporate reunion than on individual conversion, we certainly do not turn away Orthodox who wish to embrace the fullness of the faith in Catholicism.
Nor do we discourage such searches as yours.
Lumen Gentium says all are bound to belong to the Catholic Church. Anything short of the fullness is…well, short of the fullness. Perhaps just the tiniest tad short of the fullness, but still…short of the fullness. 🙂
I do not mean this non-irenically, much less as proselytism (a loaded term, often undefined). It’s just that…I think we Catholics have ourselves become confused about our own identity in recent years. We hear all these conflicting things, and we end up hopelessly confused re ecumenism vs. apologetics or re the proper way to respond to separated brethren seeking fullness of truth. Our current pope is seeking to restore to us a sense of Catholic identity–and part of that entails the renewed recognition that theCatholic Church is the One Church possessing the fullness of the faith…and that we ought to pray for all to come into that fullness, just as we used to years ago.
Sorry for rambling, again….
God bless!
Diane
P.S. CU–I for one am very glad you have created this blog. BTW, have you seen Rusty’s blog at becominghinged.wordpress.com ? It considers some of the same issues thrashed out here.
Diane
You are lucky to know so many Orthodox of an irenical disposition! Where I am there are not so many…establishing a dialogue is not so easy.
Waiting for your e-mail my friend.
cathedraunitatis,
Thank you for your comments. At this point in time (despite my love of Catholic culture-music, architecture etc) I have no intentions of converting to the RCC for two main reasons,
1.) I do not yet know enough about her claims-it has only been little more than a year since I began my search into historic Christianity-into things deeper than “me, my Bible, and no creed but Christ”-in this regard I am an infant. I am a musician by trade, and had the good fortune to receive an education at a Conservatory. It certainly would seem odd if after a year of Piano class a singer decided he had the goods on some centuries old disagreement about trill technique.
2.) My wife has found a spiritual home in our local OCA parish. God led us to convert at the same time to Orthodoxy, and I have no doubt that should He choose, he can change my wife’s and my heart and mind in unison as He has before.
Concerning no.1, I hope that I am thinking about this issue correctly. I tend to see things through a very black/white lense (I am 25, I have been told that for better or worse things tend to gray as one ages), a paradigm that could lead one to the probably far too simplistic conclusion that if
the RCC is right, Orthodoxy is wrong. Like the line ‘East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet’- as if none of the two churches’ ideas, writings,or theology overlapped. We are all shaped by our experiences, and while I owe a lot to my Baptistic upbringing, I think that this type of overly simplified-us vs. them-type of thinking I have most likely acquired from my youth is not the best approach to this issue as a whole.
Thoughts?
One cannot investigate the “claims of Orthodoxy.” You have to live it. It is an ontological matter, not one you can work out with your reason and decide to go with Brand O over Brand R. The Orthodox Church is the Body and Blood of Christ, evident in the thousands of deified men and women who have transfigured the world, upholding us in their prayers. The Church consistently creates saints and relics… when people live fully within the Church, they are transfigured. It is a proven means to the presence of Paradise within the heart of man right here, right now, not in some distant ethereal kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven can reside within you. If you want this, then the Orthodox Church is the place for you. If you want intellectual certainty, maybe go somewhere else.
“Deny yourself and follow me.” Which group consistenly fasts? Which group produces men who are literally ceaseless prayer? Which group has men whose faces glow like Christ on Mount Tabor, or the like the Prophet Moses? Which group has men who see the Uncreated Light of God? Which group converses with the Apostles, and values her Liturgy? Which group has a blossoming revival of monasticism, “vocations” to the priesthood, and conversion?
Who cares about which Church has correct historical claims? This is not the problem of man. The problem of man is the division between created and uncreated, man and woman, mind and heart, soul and body, life and death, etc… the problem is Death! Sin! And the Orthodox Church has a way of fixing all of this, no matter what station of life you are in. There are saints walking among us today, and you have the possibility of becoming one. And sanctity is something ontological, not psychological or some predestined merit.
If you submit your logic to the Church, and try to gain a drop of humility in living the ascetical-sacramental life in obedience to a spiritual father through prayer, fasting, almsgiving, pilgrimage, and frequent confession and communion, you will see much fruit.
Who cares about which Church has correct historical claims?
I do. Because God gave me a brain along with a soul. We are not disembodied wraiths, utterly abstracted from the world. We are flesh-and-blood human beings living in the midst of the flux and messiness of human history.
The Second Person of the Trinity became Man–took on our flesh and blood–in precisely such a context: humanity, history, in all its grit and messiness. The Church, too, must be “incarnate”–in the world while not of it. And this means she must not separate Faith and Reason, Soul and Body, lest she lapse into the error of Docetism.
The Catholic Church, IMHO, is the most fully Incarnational of all the churches and communions. Does she have more than her share of great saints and ascetics, of awesome Eucharistic miracles, weeping icons, incorruptibles, and more? Yes. Does she have numerous orders of cloistered monks and nuns who live in ceaseless prayer? Yes. Does she have holy men and women who adore Christ with their whole beings in sacred solitude? Yes.
But she also has dedicated (and no less Spirit-filled) members who minister to the poorest of the poor in squalid slums all over the globe. She has saintly scholars (I know one, a very holy Benedictine at a local university) and Spirit-led social workers and pious parents. She has people who realize that one must occasionally come down from Mount Tabor in order to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, and visit the prisoners…not to mention to preach the Gospel to all nations.
If you want a purely spiritual religion, utterly untouched by the grossness of human flesh or the exigency of human needs, then I suggest you try Buddhism. Christianity cannot escape the Incarnation. And one implication of the Incarnation is that history matters, and so does historical truth, and so does our ability to grasp it.
With all respect and best wishes,
Diane
Dianes comment reminds me of some of my own feelings about being attracted to the Latin Church because it is so large and powerful around the world, much like Wal-mart. However I realize that much of its spread is due to both the colonialism of western europe and the freedom and wealth that western europe had to proselytize throughout the world. The Eastern Churches, except for Russia, were usually too poor and focused on surviving in their own land so that missionary activity was not able to be focused on.
I think more people should read Fr John Romanides work which shows that the many of the western churches problems stem from the corruption by the Frankish Church during the 800’s to 1200’s which had a limited understanding of Christianity as it had so recently adopted it from an oppressed mediterranean roman society who was at there mercy to do their bidding.
Any emphasis on the Church of Romes strengths must also mention its disadvantages and need to revive it’s most ancient liturgical practices as the norm in order to be fully Orthodox.
Orthodoxy and Catholicism are rthe two true churches inthe worldseparated by a political argument between the pope of rome and patriarch of constantinople. i’m an orthodox christian who has debated the issue of the churches with a catholic friend for 2 years. we read theb ooks written by both churches saw the misquotations taken by both churches to show their point of view. the funny thng is how roem tries to ascribe a special place to it self because peter was its bishop, but they seem to neglect the fact that paul did more work in rome than peter and that peter was the main cause of the ancient churches of jeruslame, antioch, alexandria and then rome where he died. To say the orthodox are lacking inthe fullness of the truth because we don’t hold the pope as supreme head of the church on earth is false. the church has only one head and that is christ. one conclusion i came unto is that peter is the archetype of all bishops to claim an exclusive right to him by one church cannot stand. both churches differ int hat the catholics liek to define things while the orthodox leave things to myystic understanding. Read the history and don’t let the politicvs give you a hateful understanding of either church they both have the fullness of the faith but out of romes actions to make the orthodox submit to the pope it gave it self the negative view alot of the orthodox have. the church will be one the cup will be one, someday. the world corrts and as both patriarchs wanted absolute power the church suffered, open your heart and your mind and the truth will be clear.
thank you and good luck on your journey